In this episode, Steven Pope, the Amazon Guy, shares some insider secrets on how to advertise on Amazon, how to use SEO and get organic traffic, and some amazon hacks to help you sell more books and products on the platform.
Resources Mentioned
Website: The Amazon Guy
Keyword Software:
3 Key Points
Use both PPC and SEO to get more book and product sales on Amazon.
It’s easy for anyone to do AMS ads using auto campaigns.
AMS ads will average 3 organic sales over time for every Pay-per-click sale you make.
Transcripts
[00:51] Ellen: Hi everybody. And welcome to Episode 56. Today, my guest is Stephen Pope, My Amazon guy. So, Steven started his career as a TV reporter in Idaho, then was an eCommerce director for ten years for brands ranging from gold and silver coins to women’s plus-size clothing. After dozens of requests to side-hustle consult for Amazon clients, he started the agency to make it easier to growth hack the platform.
So, he now has over 300 tutorial videos on YouTube showing how to handle any problem faced on YouTube on Amazon. And I thought that would be great for my listeners, as everybody knows, I do #1 bestseller launches in Amazon. So, this is really great.
And Steven also hosts a podcast with interviews from other Amazon experts, including me. We did one recently and I’ll post that on the podcast page, along with this interview. So, welcome to the call, Stephen.
Steven: Thanks for having me.
Ellen: I’m thrilled to have you a, we were talking on the interview that I did with you, it became clear that we are a really good, what’s the word I’m looking for?
Steven: There’re some synergies.
Ellen: Synergy, yeah, definitely.
Steven: Two peas in a pod, right?
Ellen: Right. There’s definitely some synergy. So, we’re going to talk about Amazon optimization, keywords and ads. So, why don’t you start? Is there anything else you want to tell us about your journey before we get into it? Or should we jump in?
[02:19] Steven: It’s my pleasure to join you today. It’s super exciting. I think everybody who sells on Amazon, whether it’s a book or anything, it’s very much a journey and it’s a jungle out there. So, anything I can do to make your life easier today, or give you a quick couple of tips for your listeners to be able to increase their sales. That’s my joy and pleasure to help you out today.
[02:39] Ellen: Okay, great. Well then, let’s start by talking about Amazon optimization.
[02:46] Steven: So anytime you optimize a listing, there’s so many different components that go into it, and there’s really everything you’re trying to do boils down to two things, increase the traffic to your listing and improve the conversion rate of those that visited. And the best practices that we teach and we develop and implement at My Amazon Guy are pretty consistent across all the categories.
So, whether it’s a book or a home good, or a gift- tweezers or an air purifier, doesn’t matter, you need to have a couple of basic things in place. And the most important is probably your title and photos. So, on your title, you want to maximize that space. Now Amazon’s increasingly signaling they’re going to limit you down to fifty characters, so, utilize that full 200 characters while you can, before that changes. The book title obviously needs to go in there, the keywords about what you’re teaching or what your book’s about need to be present if at all possible.
[03:47] Ellen: You’re saying even if you’re even if your title is longer than that, it won’t all show up?
Steven: Yeah. I mean, if you get 200 characters, they’re going to, they’re going to force you to cap it.
Ellen: Oh no.
Steven: They’re not going to let you go any longer than that.
[03:58] Ellen: Well, it hasn’t happened yet, which is why I haven’t seen it, but that’s good to know that it’s coming. Do you have any idea when it’s going?
Steven: They’ve started to crack down and select categories going down to fifty characters, the book category, maybe it never happens to the book of the book category.
Ellen: Well, we’ll see.
Steven: It could, but like I’ve seen it hits in supplements. Anything that’s topical or consumable. Those seem to be the categories that have been hit the most. H ome goods and gifts, they’ve started to suppress listings if you use certain language like you can’t actually use the word “gifts” in your title anymore. Go figure, right? So, a lot of moving targets; Amazon is absolutely changing their processes and their games and, and you have to be on your foot. It’s not worth it. To use a hockey metaphor, “It’s not where the puck is today, it’s where the puck’s going to be.” And you need to plan accordingly and you’re not always going to get it right. You just need to be in this striking-distance zone so that if the puck comes your way, you can take a swing.
Ellen: All I have to say is “Oy.”
[04:58] Steven: Alright, so let’s talk photos then.
Ellen: Okay.
Steven: So, I think book authors have a huge opportunity on this. More often than not, whenever I see a book on Amazon, it’s two or three photos front and back of the book and maybe if you’re lucky a picture of the author. There’s so much more you can do here. Show me a picture of your target audience reading your book. If you sell a children’s book, I better see kids being read to from that book. And not just one photo, like three or four of them. You could also take a picture, maybe one of your best pages and excerpt, if you will. You could put in testimonials or quotes or by-lines or whatever. It might be anything that gives information to the consumer to help them put themselves in the shoes of buying and using your product or your book.
[05:44] Ellen: So, where would those pictures be? Right in the listing on the sales page?
[05:49] Steve: Yeah. So right next to the main photo of your item, you can go into a secondary photo slot.
Ellen: Ah, okay.
Steve: So, there’s availability for up to seven photos. And if you’ve got a video, the video will take that seventh slot. Honestly, I don’t think I usually see videos in the book category, however, so fill the photos up if you can.
[06:07] Ellen: That is a great tip, but let’s talk about videos for a minute because you can put a video in and as you just said, most people don’t. If they were going to do that, what would you suggest beyond just a regular, typical book trailer?
Steven: Well, if you think about it, what does audible do? What do all of the other software platforms do? They read an excerpt. So, if I was an author with the #1 bestseller book on Amazon, I would read my own book.
Ellen: Ah, nice.
Steven: And give me a one-and-a-half, two-minute clip of it because chances are that attention-getting device is going to mean the difference between them buying your book or not buying it, maybe buying a competitors’.
[06:47] Ellen: Well, that’s one of the things that I talk about a lot is that you need to look at what other books are out there so that you can see how yours is different. And that goes really well with what you’re saying is like, once you know how it’s different if you can use that space and those pictures, and whatever else you’re doing to enhance that, that’s going to be really good for your book sales too.
[07:10] Steven: And even if your product’s not different, right? Cause I help a lot of Amazon sellers that have similar items, right?
[07:15] Ellen: Oh yeah. Yeah. Well more with what you do then what I do. Yeah.
[07:19] Steven: Yeah, yeah. But let’s say the contents the same, whether it’s a book or a random widget, apple slicer, or whatever it might be, even if the product’s the same or the message is the same, you can still differentiate your marketing, right?
Ellen: Oh, absolutely.
Steve: The color of your book, the messaging, the main three features, whatever you’re touting, differentiate that. So, you have an opportunity to put together some basic product description or bullet points of your book. What’s the main message? What are you trying to get across?
Articulate that and be lengthy. You’ve got so much room and so much copy. Some people might say, “Oh, it’s, I’m giving away all of my secrets before they even buy it.” The contrary is the truth, right? Like your content is your ability to get attention. If you don’t fill out these attributes, if you don’t maximize the copy, the title, the bullets, the description, whatever it might be, you are letting go of search term optimization, which means less people will see your product, not more
[08:14] Ellen: I love that. And I totally agree. Totally agree. So, one of the things that helps authors aside from organic is ads. And that is one thing that you specialize in. So, let’s talk about the ads. So, what do you suggest people do to get more eyeballs through their ads?
[08:36] Steve: Advertising, as a marketer, I’m going to be very biased on this question, but I will say this, I believe every product should be advertising 24/7, every single product. And that doesn’t mean you’ll spend a hundred grand on PPC. That’s not what I’m saying. But what I am saying is there is a bid that is appropriate for every product and every product’s keywords. And you may only be willing to bid thirty-three cents instead of that seventy-five-cent-bid average in your category to sell your product. But that’s still thousands of impressions you wouldn’t have gotten otherwise, even if you’re only getting 5% of the available impressions.
So, there’s so many new ad types that have come out on Amazon in the last year. Everything from sponsor products, offensive ASIN targeting, custom brand image, brand ads, display, and video ads. So, let’s say you’ve got ten books. Your book is very much alike. Target those books with your ad show up on their listing steal some of their sales, right? Amazon is giving you the opportunity to get eyeballs. And there’s so many ad segmentations sponsored brands, which really won’t be effective for books per se cause that’s more of like, you need a trademark to do that one and display ads, but there’s so many different places that ads show up on Amazon today that they didn’t show up a year ago, and books are being allowed to advertise in AMS. And you have some opportunities.
[09:55] Ellen: Yeah. I have a question about that. One of my interviewees, Mark Guberti, was saying that it’s easy to do AMS ads, but it’s hard to scale them. What are your thoughts on that?
[10:09] Steven: It’s a really complicated science. Of all the services that we offer at My Amazon Guy. It’s the number one, lucrative one, right? It’s the moneymaker for every ten agencies out there probably seven or eight, just do PPC. That’s all they do because it’s such a difficult task. Now the challenge of being an agency where we do everything, we have to literally learn every single process from SEO to design, to PPC, to logistics and everything in between. But advertising is the one that you have to be an inch wide and a mile deep on. And that’s because it’s so complicated and there’s so much at stake.
Ellen: Okay. What do you mean when you say an inch wide and a mile deep?
[10:50] Steven: You got to know your ads so well; you have to understand all of the processes, every ad type, all segmentations, you got to understand how to make bid-type changes, bid modifications, there’s bid modifier tools. You might want to be putting your ad in certain segmentations or in certain real estates. And you got to know every single one of those areas. And that was a high-level overview of every technical aspect.
But there’s so many different types of campaigns you’re going to create. Some will be for awareness. Some your marketing funnel, if you have a little tornado, right? So, at the top of the funnel is awareness. So, maybe your general brand terms are up there or non-brand general terms about the subject matter of what you’re speaking to, because you’re just trying to create awareness. And then, down the funnel you go, and somebody who’s got a very specific problem that your book teaches about is going to buy your book because they searched that term.
Your advertising costs to spend is going to be lower, the lower in the funnel you go. But if the purpose of your book is not to make money, if the purpose of your book is to get exposure then advertising is just an extension of that. And if you advertise your book, that’s going to lead to cross-contamination of your other channel opportunities. Whether you want to be a speaker, a coach, whatever your book is really articulated to position your product offering, advertising your book will lead to those sales.
[12:15] Ellen: Well, what if they want to make money with their book then? Right.
[12:17] Steven: Well, I’ll be honest. If I was going to say there was a category to make money in, books wouldn’t be the first five I would pick, but you’re the book expert, you know if it’s possible, I’m guessing it is.
[12:26] Ellen: Well, I know it’s possible, but people want to know how.
[12:30] Steven: That’s the challenge, right? So, I think it’s Dan Kennedy that talks about the process of pricing your information, right? And when you finally put a price tag on your book, then you’re articulating a value prop and somebody can replicate it, somebody can read it and take it and reuse it. Right? And so, it’s very difficult to get that price and correct. If you sell business evaluations for five grand, a pop, maybe your go-to market price on your book is a hundred dollars, even if it’s thirty pages long. But if your book is a novel about how, you know, fantasy novel, for whatever reason, then your book’s not going to sell for more than $20 on a good day, right? Because there are just thousands of competitors in that genre. So, it really depends on what information you’re offering, how to price it accordingly.
[13:23]: The next problem is logistics, right? So, if you’re doing print on demand, your profit margin is going to shrink very quickly. Now your investment on the other hand is significantly less. Your risk is less. So, it just depends on how your logistics are going to go. So, like if I’m selling a hot sauce bottle, and it’s glass and it’s two pounds heavy, I know that it’s going to cost me minimum five to six bucks to ship that across the country. Books, books are a lot cheaper to ship, but they’re more expensive to create. Right? And so, it just really depends on a) what your strategy is, what you’re trying to get out of it. And b) how your book is made and c) how many are made. Because depending on the size of the book, whether it’s hard, cover softcover textbook, or otherwise, that could be right.
Ellen: Right. Well, one of the things I know people get really disappointed is when they think they’re going to do their book in color, and then they find out how much money it costs
Steven: Yeah, we didn’t even talk color.
Ellen: And you can’t make any money. Yeah. You can’t make any money. The ones that actually do the best are a series of romance novels. And that’s not really what this podcast is about, but that really is the easiest way is when you have a series and you can give one or two away or whatever, and then people get attached to what you’re doing and they get hooked and they want to buy all the rest of them. But series of books is a good way to go too. But I think that, yeah,
[14:43] Steven: I think that series idea is probably the way to be profitable, for sure. because the acquisition cost of a first-time author, buyer is steep, right? The RA Salvatore’s, and the John Grisham’s of the world, their book sells before they even write it.
Ellen: Right.
Steven: But for Joe Schmo, who nobody’s ever heard, why should I buy your book, pay me to buy your book. Maybe I’ll read it. So that can be the challenge.
[15:07] Ellen: Yeah. Well, do you have any tips on how to create your ads?
Steven: There’s a lot of things you can do. So, here’s the five minute sound bite if you will, or the five-second task today, if all you do is go set up an auto campaign, it will take you less than five minutes, go into your campaign manager, pick out your book, type in the ISBN number or…
Ellen: ASIN
Steven: Thank you, and then put into that the campaign set up and set up an auto campaign. What an auto campaign is, is Amazon’s choosing the keywords for you. So, you don’t even have to do any research.
Ellen: Oh, okay.
Steve: Set up your generic bid.
[15:48]: You’ll put me out of business here, yeah. Kidding.
[15:50] Steven: Well, yeah. Doing auto campaigns is definitely not going to get the book to a number-one seller, let’s be honest, right? What it is going to do is getting to help get some moderate exposure for minimal effort. And so, if you set up this auto campaign, it will choose the keywords for you. Now over time, you can go back into this campaign, review the search terms and negate things. But if all you did was set up an auto campaign, put it in a generic bid of say, I don’t know, seventy-five cents, you’re going to generate some sales. And if the advertising cost of spend is break-even or better. So, let’s say your margin or your books.
[16:20] Ellen: So, we’re still talking about AMS ads, right?
Steven: Yeah. A hundred percent.
Ellen: Okay.
Steven: Everything we’ll talk about will be within Amazon’s platform today because I do not think that an external ad for your book is easy to do, nor do I recommend Google or Facebook ads going to Amazon because you can’t track them.
Ellen: Ah. Okay. Good to know.
Steven: There’s no tracking now. So, if you are going to drop money on external ads, though, the way to do it is in the first two weeks of the launch. Spend $1,000 to $3,000 in the first two weeks, then shut off those ads. That’s how I would do it. If I was going to spend money on external ads, but within Amazon, all in AMS auto campaign, easiest campaign ever to set up a couple of minutes of effort, and you’ll get sales within twenty-four hours, there are a dozen other types of campaigns you can do.
[17:07] Ellen: Well, wait a minute. How much do you suggest people start with?
[17:09] Steven: Well, it depends on their budget, right? So, if you want to sell five books a month then $5 a day is going to do the job, right? If you want to sell 5,000 books a month, then you better be willing to pony up and figure out what your paid-per-acquisition is. So, if you said, “Hey, my book margins, 30%, I sell the book for $20.” Then you know that you’re willing to pay up to $6 per acquisition. That’s a good, healthy budget to work with.
[17:33] Ellen: Well, yeah. You’ve got to take into consideration the printing costs and then you get, what is it? Then, it’s 70% after that.
[17:40] Steven: Yeah. So, work your way backwards through that math, they got all the costs of goods, everything that’s needed, and figure out what your break-even point is. Once know your break, even percentage, then you know exactly how much you can spend on ads to break even. You could even advertise at a loss, especially in the first two weeks. Cause there’s, what’s called “the honeymoon period.” Right? So, if you jettison into the New Releases top sellers, then you’re going to get a lot more exposure. Right?
[18:04] Ellen: Right. Which is one of the things I help people do with the launch. Yeah. So, you’re saying if you add the ads and with that, that’s even more juice.
[18:12] Steven: It’s more juice, it’s more SEO rankings. You’re going to leapfrog your competition in the first two to three weeks.
Ellen: Okay.
Steven: And so, even posts week three. So, let’s say your book’s been up for four weeks plus. I recommend still advertising because it’s going to, for every sale you get from ads, it’s going to create three organic sales on average, not immediately, but through the life of that ad, if you will. So, let’s say one person purchases today, then three others would probably purchase over the course of the next 90 to 180 days because the keyword that you generated that sale on. So, just give me an example of a book. A book you’ve recently helped. Any topic
[18:49] Ellen: Lead, Engage, Motivate is on team building.
Steven: Team building. So, let’s say the keyword (phrase) is “team building for small businesses,”
Ellen: Or, maybe it was Lead, Motivate, Engage. Yeah. Yeah.
Steven: So, if your keyword is team building for small businesses and you get a sale off of PPC, that’s going to jettison your rank from zero to top 300 on indexing. Let’s say you get another ten sales up that keyword and you break into the top fifty. Well then, organically speaking, somebody’s coming to find that search term, and let’s say that search term has 2000 people a month that search it. This is just one single keyword.
Ellen: Right.
Steven: Well, if you start to get that exposure off that one keyword and mind you, your book is probably going to rank for somewhere between 500 and 5,000 keywords. You do the math. Let’s say your conversion rates 10%. And that your click-through rating is 10% on a couple of hundred keywords. Well then, you know exactly how many products you’re going to move per month. Do all the math, 10% of this 10% of that. Boom. Okay, I know I’m going to be selling seventy-three books a month based on the available impressions and the keywords I rank on. It’s not that clean when you do the math, and it’s kind of a lot harder, but that’s the general idea, right? You want to rank for as many keywords as you can and anything that’s relevant related to your book topic or the user that would the demographics of the user that would…
[20:09] Ellen: But you were saying that they give you the keywords. How many do they give you?
[20:14] Steven: So, in the auto campaign Amazon does all the keyword work.
Ellen: Okay.
Steven: The manual campaigns, which is every other campaign type, you’re going to have to put the keywords in yourself. And so, here is where you’re going to have to do some research. My favorite tool to do keyword research is Helium 10. There are many others out there, Jungle Scout, Viral Launch my favorites, Helium 10. And I like Helium 10 because it gives tremendous…
Ellen: Helium 10, T-E-N?
[20:42] Steven: Yeah, number 10.
Ellen: There’s also one that I’m familiar with (Publisher Rocket). I’ll put that one in too.
Steven: Yeah. And no matter what tool you use, your goal is to figure out, go find your three top competitors and see what keywords they rank for. That’s your starting point, download that list, make sure your book copy is articulated and targeted towards that list. If you do this, then you’re going to have a good opportunity to rank for those keywords. You’re putting that content in those keywords, into the content to index.
So, what do I mean by index? I mean, show up in the top 300 products for that search term. That’s what it means to index and show up in search results. Once you index. the next step is to rank higher, and you’re going to matriculate these keywords. And so, if you’re paying attention to your rankings over time, I recommend a three-phase approach. So, day one, go duplicate all the keywords off your competitors’ books, put those into your listing day.
[21:39] Ellen: Or, what Russell Brunson would call “funnel hacking”.
[21:42] Steven: Sure, absolutely. A hundred percent aligned with that phrase. So, step two or day sixty or ninety, somewhere in that range, you’re going to do what I like to call the “pink word” update. So, any keyword that’s in your title does not need to be in the back end of your search terms.
Ellen: Right.
Steven: Step three, day, maybe 90 to 120, somewhere in that range, you’re then going to go back to Helium 10, look at the keywords that are ranked twenty to fifty and redo your entire setup, focusing on those striking distance keywords. If you do that, your goal is to push those to top ten, and you’ll probably have somewhere between forty and fifty striking-distance keywords and ranks twenty through fifty. You push those up, you get more exposure. And by the way, any of the keywords that we’re talking about for search engine optimization, you’re not paying Amazon for that; it’s all organic. But the advertising, which we’ve kind of been going back and forth between PPC and SEO, pay-per-click advertising and SEO, you are paying literally for every time somebody clicks on an ad. You pay for that, whether they buy the book or not.
Ellen: Right, right.
Steven: And I’m telling you, do both. Focus your efforts on both SEO and PPC. They help each other. For every PPC sale you get, it’s going to give you three organics. That’s why they’re so important together.
Ellen: What would you say to people who say, “Well, I’m not techie. I don’t know where to start,” or “I don’t know how to do this.” What would you say for people who’ve like never done this? This is all totally new. What do you think?
[23:09] Steven: That auto campaign was the answer to the PPC side.
Ellen: Okay.
Steven: On the SEO side, you’re going to need to use a tool or you’re going to need to hire an expert like you.
Ellen: Ah.
Steven: And so, bringing in an expert to help with your optimization, or if you don’t bring in the expert, you’re going to have to pay the other piper, which is your time.
Ellen: Yeah. Right.
Steven: You have to spend hours and hours researching this, listening to podcasts, which your listeners are doing today, reading lots of articles and watching videos on YouTube. I’ve got 300 videos on YouTube that answers any question or any problem on Amazon. You go to youtube.com/myamazonguy. And literally any question you could ask, there’s probably a video on it. I released one every other day, usually.
Ellen: That’s awesome. Yeah. And if they still feel like they need help with the customization, that is one of my specialties. So yeah, so we got them covered.
Steven: So, you got to optimize. And if you don’t optimize, then you’re going to fall, fall behind. Right? You’re not going to get the book off the ground. You’re going to have a thousand copies made, but, but no sales. So, it’s really…
Ellen: Well, you don’t have to do that anymore. Now you just use publishing on demand. That’s one good thing.
[24:23] Steven: Yeah. And I kind of mentioned that earlier in the podcast where I said your costs are probably higher for print on demand, but your risk is lower.
Ellen: Right, right.
Steven: So, it just depends on your run rates and what you’re doing. Of course, you’d probably know better than me on those questions. But if you work backwards and figure out, “Hey, here’s my costs for my book. Here’s what I can spend on advertising and investment.” And you break even on it, then your book is going to make a profit just by ranking better.
[24:48] Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. What I would say is that most people I know don’t, unless they’re speakers, they don’t want to buy the books because they’re not going to do what it’s going to take to sell them. But the other thing I would say is that every author should be a speaker.
[25:02] Steven: Yeah, absolutely. Once you get that first book in, and those podcasts invite, they seem to come in a little bit better because you’ve got some credibility.
Ellen: Yeah. So, do you have any final tips before we go? This has been awesome.
[25:14] Steven: Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, why do we sell on Amazon? Is it to work for Amazon or have Amazon work for us? And that’s an increasing question because the pathway to profitability or the pathway to figure out what your objective is, I would encourage your listeners to write down their objective. because if you don’t write down your objective, you won’t have a focus. And if you don’t have a focus, you don’t know what actions to take. And if you don’t know what actions to take, you’re not going to take any. So, I think it’s all connected together. Make sure you have a plan. And if you don’t have a plan, an expert can help you build that plan. They’re going to talk to you and ask you questions. What are your objectives? What do you want to do? Do you want to be on the podcast circuit? Do you want to be on the stage? Do you want to be coaching? What are your objectives?
And once you know your objectives, write your action plan backwards from there. And no matter what that is, you can bend Amazon to your purposes. If your goals are to do coaching, then you should have a website with a link to your book, so that somebody can either buy the book or schedule a coaching call.
The SEO that you do on Amazon will be part of your brand. It’s part of your messaging. And it’s part of how you’re going to get a hold of your direct-customer acquisition. And if you treat Amazon as a partner tool in crime for your acquisition, it’s going to go well. If you are frustrated by the illogical nature of selling on Amazon, you not alone. And it is impossible to make Amazons’ illogical, siloed nature, bend to your will. It’s just not possible.
Ellen: True.
Steve: So instead, don’t get frustrated, solve the problem. If it costs money to solve the problem, it’s not a problem. It’s an expense.
Ellen: Well, it’s an investment, right?
Steven: Or, it’s an investment. But if it’s not an expense or it’s not an investment, you probably need to hire an expert to solve that problem.
Ellen: Okay. Well, this has been really, really great. I know that people should definitely copy and paste the transcript and hold on to this one, because you’re going to want to go back and reference this again and again, I have a feeling. So, you already said how people can contact you, I think, but why don’t you say it again? How can people reach you? So, www.myamazonguy.com, that’s where our agency exists.
[27:36]: We help people with everything from SEO, PPC, and design for all things, Amazon, if you’re selling a book, you should talk to Ellen because she’s the book expert, right? But if you sell a, an Apple slicer or another product, you should give me my Amazon guy at checkout. If you know somebody in your network that needs help with that, we definitely would appreciate it. Otherwise, feel free to subscribe to our YouTube channel, where we have hundreds and hundreds of topics. We’re free content answer. Any product question you possibly can leave a comment on one of our videos will absolutely. I will personally read it and answer for you.
Okay. Well, that’s it for today to get the transcripts go to www.books businessabundance.com/podcast. You’re also welcome to join our Facebook group, which is also on the podcast page. That’s where you get first notice of all our new podcasts. There’s networking. There’s a marketing day where you can share what you’re selling or something that’s free if you want. And it’s just a great place to hang out. So, as I said, that’s on the podcast page. So, thank you again, Steven. This has been great.
Steven: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
Ellen: You’re welcome. Till next time everybody. Bye-bye.
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