Roundtable with Jillian Coleman Wheeler, Gary Loper, Betsy Mcclellan Hall, and Wayne Buckhanan, and me, Ellen Violette,  sharing around issues that come up during the holidays and family get-togethers, and how to cope with them including: how to deal with wanting approval from your family, dealing with grief, differing politics, how to take care of yourself through it all and more.

Resources mentioned

Book: How to Crush it in Business Without Crushing Your Spirit,
How Entrepreneurs Can Overcome Depression and Find Success
http://ellenlikes.com/crush-it
(The print version of the book will be available soon.)

3 Key Points

Focus on the joy of the season.

Be yourself and try to surround yourself with those who appreciate the real you.

Take responsibility for taking care of yourself, your emotions and your feelings.

Transcript

(We had some technical issues after [22:00], but it is well worth listening to or reading past there!)

Ellen Violette: Hi and welcome to episode 27. Today we’re going to be talking about depression because the holidays are coming up. And I have my co-writers (from our collaborative book, How to Crush it in Business Without Crushing Your Spirit, How Entrepreneurs Can Overcome Depression and Find Success) on the line with me here.

Jillian Coleman Wheeler, Gary Loper, Betsy McClellan Hall, and Wayne Buchanan. And the reason I wanted to do this is because I know a lot of people suffer more during the holidays. It’s a hard time for us. I’ve lost all of my family. I’m now the oldest in my family, and I know a lot of other people are going through a lot of things too. So, I thought this would be a great time. Also, we’re getting ready to relaunch the book. I just updated it. How to Crush it in Business Without Crushing your Spirit, How Entrepreneurs Can Overcome Depression and Find Success. And all of my guests today are our co-writers in the book.

[00:52] Ellen: First I want to tell you a little bit about each one of them and then we are going to get into, hopefully, a lively discussion. So, Betsy is known as the networking queen of silver Lake, which is an area of Los Angeles if you’re not familiar with it. In the past, Betsy and I have co-facilitated several Author Profit Incubator Masterminds, and Betsy is very good at dealing with people like from the heart and helping them open their hearts more and grow more. So, welcome to the call. Betsy.

[01:20]: Jillian has been an author, consultant, speaker and personal mentor for more than three decades. She has a background in counseling, writing and marketing and also an extensive training in the mental-health area. And she’s the co- author of six books on personal development, spirituality and marketing. And her new book is on also on overcoming depression,   and it will be released soon and you can learn more about that and helpfordepressionbook.com

[01:50] Wayne has described himself as a geek who loves people and teaching. He started his first business twenty-two years ago providing technical services,  and now focuses on training professionals around people, technologies like productive tension and the stories we tell ourselves.

[2:10]   And Gary Loper. He’s helped me a lot with Twitter. He’s a Twitter expert, teaching people to use Twitter in relationship marketing and also as a motivational speaker, life and business coach,  and a high respected entrepreneur. And he has enthused and empowered individuals in all walks of life and is a very positive person.

[02:49] Okay. So, what I wanted to focus on to start is specifically the holidays. So, I’d like go around and have each person, If you have one, maybe share a story about something that happened to you around the holiday, something maybe that depressed you that you needed to deal with. And if you don’t have a story like that, you can just tell us how you feel about the holidays. Let’s just talk about that. So, you want to start Wayne?

[03:00] Wayne: Sure. I’m going to probably push the boundaries of holidays because a holiday season is always interesting interacting with all of the extended family that typically are not entrepreneurs. And so there’s that layer of, “Okay, do I have to explain that aspect of things or do I just stick with the day job looking things that they can relate to?” But on a deeper level, I recognize the holidays is kind of that beginning of the winter cause being in the Midwest it is already had snow.  We’ve had a couple of snow days, and the gray is begun where it just does not have that happy vibe to it.

I realized a long time ago that I don’t do well with the extended gray and being stuck inside and all the things that go with winter if I don’t have something happening every so often. So, I caught myself. If I went more than two years without having actually going away doing something in the sunshine, making sure there was exercise layered in there that was beyond the normal stuff you get in the winter,  I would definitely deal with things that started looking like Seasonal Effective Disorder and very close to that depression. Sort of just dealing with the malaise of all of that.

So that for me, that’s part of what is going on with the holiday season is recognizing that we’re moving into that time where yeah, the weather itself is going to conspire against me, let alone interacting with everything that is holiday.

[04:43] Ellen: Right. Right. And in the book, Wayne actually does talk about that, about the whole, what’s it called? SAD.

[04:51] Wayne: Yeah. Sad. Seasonal Affective Disorder.

[04:54] Ellen: So yeah, for everybody in the Midwest or anywhere where it’s really, really cold, that can be an issue too.

[05:37] Ellen: Betsy. What would you like to share?

[05:45]    Betsy Hall: I used to kind of have a dread of the holiday starting around October 1^st, and now I’m really looking forward to them. And the thing that’s changed is we are only doing a one-gift exchange. I don’t even have a big family, but just the whole thought of the expense and the figuring out what to do for everybody on top of the meal and everything else that it comes in. I’m in printing, so, a lot of business comes in at the end of the year with greeting cards, and calendars, and things like that. And just knowing I only have to get one present for one person in exchange has just really relieved a lot of pressure.

[05:47] Ellen: Oh, that’s a great tip.

[05:50] Betsy Hall: And everybody else in the family loves it too.

[05:52] Ellen: Mmm-huh. Yeah, in that sense we’re lucky because we don’t have anybody here, so we don’t have to buy anything. But, actually I just did a tweet earlier today, and I said to people, “We don’t want to focus on food this year.” We both cut out all the sugar and all that kind of stuff, so we don’t want to do that. So, I was on Twitter, and I was asking people, “If you don’t want Thanksgiving to be about food, what other things could you do? What can you do instead of that?”

Because I found myself getting depressed about that. I look forward to the turkey and all that, but everything was sweet, everything. So, that’ll be interesting. I don’t know, if anybody has any tips about that too… feel free to share. Has anybody ever done anything that wasn’t food-related on Thanksgiving or Christmas? I know we used to go away actually for Christmas, but Thanksgiving.

[06:50] Betsy Hall: Yeah, I think for me what’s going on is, is bringing in the carols. We sing songs that were written by my grandparents and traditional caroling. My husband goes out and does, Dickins caroling,  and I think so much of the entertainment at that time of year is positive. It is helping us connect with Source, helping us connect with our community and just to be open to the positive. Just let that negative voice, just observe it, but maybe not get so wound up about that.

And the other thing I am thinking about as I plan for this, this a holiday, Thanksgiving get-togethers being different is really being intentional about the subjects that we talk about around the table, having things to talk about in case it starts slipping into politics that doesn’t look like it’s going well. And, I know some people take a kernel of corn at Thanksgiving and talk about one thing they’re thankful for, it’s such an easy topic to broach at Thanksgiving visit where we’re all focused on being thankful.

[07:57] Ellen: Yeah, that’s always a nice thing to do. I want to come back to the politics thing later, but, anything else you want to share? Then we’ll give Gary a chance.

[08:07]  Betsy:  I’m good.

08;08 Ellen: Okay. Hi Gary.

[08:10] Hello.

Gary: How are you?

Ellen: (At the same time) What’s up?

[08:15] Gary: All lots of stuff. As far as our preparing for the holidays or just going through this kind of time, I know one of the things when I left Wisconsin back in ‘96 and moved down to Florida, one of the things that I found myself doing at this time a year was to do a reflections and projections thing… was to, look at, “What did I accomplish during this year? What am I grateful for?”  And sort of celebrate those wins and projecting what I’m going to be able to do and go forward. So, that helps quite a bit to be able to lessen some of these estrangement that I have with my family.

[09:02] Cause there’s a lot of separation between me and the family and parents and kids and the whole thing. So that’s one thing that really works for that and be able to focus on what you are. And one of the other things that I really saw, it created a shift in me was being able to accept the depression that I have. This is who I am. And I needed to be able to go through that, and I knew that I have to be able to be the protector of me. Nobody else is going to be able to protect me or even be able to understand. So, I really encourage people…you’ve got to take that step of responsibility and a  great way to do that, and Wayne, you mentioned about the family stuff. So one of the things like when you go to a family gathering and people say, “Well how’s it going?” So just tell them, “Unbelievable”  because that covers you both ways.

(Laugh)

[10:01] And, and then, when you also talked about, they understand the entrepreneur thing or anything else and this is an acceptance of other people. So this is one of the things that I’ve learned too, is I wound up feeling really bad when I went to family functions because I kept expecting them to be able to be different. I wanted them to be able to love me the way I want to love them. And they never did that. So, for me to be able to keep going back there and expect them to do something like that, it was just setting myself up for failure.

So, I just, you would suggest to be able to shift the conversation. You know…,”How’s it going with that business?”

“You know, oh, unbelievable.”

“ How was your vacation?”

“ How are the kids?”

You know religion, sex and politics are safer conversations and let them be able to come in and bust your balloon about something that they’re not going to understand anyway.

[12:17] And we still go through things, and I just went through a thing, something the other day where I had a blue spot, and I forced myself to be able to get outside. For Florida,  it’s cold. I’ve been down here for twenty-some years and it was sixty degrees.

Wind chill felt like fifty-something, but it was cold;  it was still brisk but I was able to get outside and get a walk-in. You just have to be able to keep doing something that you love to be able to do, to be able to keep, keep motivating yourself and go forward. And that’s why, having people who’ve have gone through some of the same stuff, who are doing it better than you, your challenge, is associations;  you have to upgrade your associations. You can’t feel better about yourself if you’re around a bunch of mopey people. So, you got to be able to find somebody, and if there’s nobody close to you, that’s why I put this stuff out on Twitter that I do all those positive messages because I know that they make a difference in people’s lives.

[12:08] Ellen: They do, they do. If you go on Twitter on a regular basis, which I do now, I didn’t use to, but I do now. And you see these over and over and over, they really do start to permeate into your consciousness.

[12:21] It does. And that’s one of the things I used that motivation because, well, I don’t want to hog everything, but that’s how I got started on Twitter. And I think it fits in with this was this was back in 2008 there was an economic depression; at the time I was doing massage for special needs clients; and it was a very emotional, fulfilling job. But the funding for that program was eliminated. I was lost and I fell into the couch for about six months.

And the only way that I got my butt off the couch was that I had been collecting motivational quotes since 1989, so I went to computer and I started reading them to be able to lift myself up. And that’s when the first tap came for me. It is to be able to start sharing those messages on Twitter. It’s kind of a, I use a Zig Ziglar quote is a motivation to say, “They say that motivation doesn’t last but either does bathing. That’s why you need to do it every day.”

So, I put those messages out there because I know they lifted me up. They got me through a spot. I’ve had stories where every… a lot of times people will write me and tell me what those messages have done.

Somebody wrote me and told me that it, changed her life because she was contemplating suicide. So, it’s just like we can do a little bit of things to be able to impact other people. And I know that that gives me motivation, that I can just jump back on Twitter and go, you’ll find some of the people who I know have good messages, but associations, acceptance are critical.

[14:12] Ellen: You made a good point though too. Personal responsibility. I think it’s really important for people to take care of themselves. Self-care, especially during the holidays. And I think that Jillian is really good at helping people with that. Yes?

[14:29]: Jillian: Yes and something Gary said just really sparked a response in me. I think that across the board, all times of year, that the source of the greatest pain for people, for most of us is the gap between our expectations and the reality. And that’s really a problem at holidays because the holidays are so fetishized by movies and music and television. And, as a culture, we have this expectation of amazing gatherings where the love flows, and the food flows, and people are thrilled to be together. And, sometimes, that’s the case and sometimes it isn’t. So, I think it’s very important to just notice what your expectations may be, and then just make an agreement with yourself to let go of your expectations, and just let things unfold.

And for people who are people who are hosting holidays, for example… I work a lot with women, with men as well, but I work a lot with women and people who have families, there’s a huge burden that people put on themselves to be perfect. My husband even has a little bit of that too, to get the right presents (for each of the grandchildren). It’s a little race. He runs in his head. “What would Donovan most one?” “How will I find out?” And “How can I find it? So, for women, for anyone who’s hosting, it’s often, the meal has to be perfect. The timing has to be perfect. The decorations have to be perfect. And that’s a big financial burden, sometimes, for people who really aren’t our position to do that;   entertaining is expensive.

 [16:28] Yeah. Yeah. There were years where we didn’t have money after the recession to even have a turkey. And I remember being really depressed.

[16:40] Jillian: There are so many expectations that we all have of ourselves and the holiday. So, I think it’s very important to be conscious. I liked, I liked that comment a little earlier about having a conscious intention. One of the things that I always do for myself and that I encourage my clients to do is to use the law of attraction around the holidays. And in order to do that, I’ll just go to my journal and write down what I want to experience during the holidays or I’m thinking right now, just next week. In fact, I was writing today, “During the Thanksgiving period  I feel loved and appreciated. I feel carefree and able to enjoy myself without feeling burdened. I feel like I look pretty, I feel that I’m able to connect (on an emotional level) with everybody special to me. “

And there may be some people at the holiday gathering with whom I don’t have that kind of a connection. So, then I may just write down,    “I feel the whole day is filled with order and harmony.”  Order and  harmony are big words that I use a lot from really from unity because if there’s perfect order in a situation that everything will unfold in the highest way for everyone.

And harmony is definitely important at holiday gatherings.

[18:18] Ellen: Definitely.

[18:19] Jillian: I’ve also found that for me, and I have a big family, and my husband and I, my husband’s retired,  I’ll probably never retire. I’ll probably die with a pen in my hand,

[18:35] Ellen: me too.

Jillian And you will?

Ellen:  Oh, definitely.

Jillian: So, we, we travel and we sold our big house some years ago when all our kids went off to college.  So, we have turned over is a holiday- pass the Baton for during the holidays- to some of our children. And so, we have six children that we raise, so our kids all have different things that they do for Thanksgiving, and we’ll join where it’s convenient for us. Go have a meal, go spend a little time. Thanksgiving. Is not quite as big a holiday for us as Christmas.

And we had to go, and I think this is an experience we share with everybody who has kids growing up, by the time your kids go off to college and particularly when they start dating and when they get married, they have their own relationships, then that illusion of having everyone at home around the Christmas tree becomes more difficult. So, what we’ve done is we’ve established a holiday tradition of family Christmas, we call it, and our family is thirty-five or forty people usually when we get together so, it could be a logistical nightmare.

But what we do is we find a weekend in the vicinity of Christmas that everyone can come and join for the family Christmas. That way we’re not interfering with in-laws. We don’t have grandchildren whose other grandparents aren’t seeing them. We, we have family Christmas.  And our son, at this point, we’ve turned it over to our son who has a, a lovely house and kind of a central area. And he’s even simplified it more this year. He’s having it catered.

[20:26] Ellen: So that’s one way to take some of the stress away.

[20:29] Jillian: Thinking about feeding thirty-five or forty people…

Ellen: Yeah, absolutely.

[20:31] Jillian:  It’s not a huge expense. When you have this many people catering can be as inexpensive as cooking, and also, we do it fairly casually. We have one gift that we give to the other adults..

Ellen: One gift like Betsy or just one for each person?

Jillian: One gift. We, we draw names…

Ellen: …you do that same thing. Okay. That seems to be a popular thing.

Jillian: You know, under eighteen or so, and that way the kids have more gifts, but we, we make it where there are no big expectations. If some people aren’t feeling quite as flush this year, then it doesn’t matter because it’s really not about the gifts. It’s gathering the little traditions that we do.

[21:13] Ellen:  It’s interesting what you were saying about Christmas and, that being way more important in your family than Thanksgiving because, being Jewish, Thanksgiving is way more important in our family than Christmas.

[21:26] Jillian: And you celebrate Hanukkah?  Did you grow up celebrating Hanukkah?

[21:30] Ellen: We actually grew up celebrating both because I had an aunt who married a non-Jewish person, and they lived in Pasadena, which is very non-Jewish. And they would have the Christmas tree, and we would all go over there. I loved that as a kid because, we got candy canes, they had a brick fireplace, and they’d put up the stockings, and it always had like walnuts and oranges, and all that kind of stuff; it was really good memories.

But then my parents love to travel. And what they started doing, which was really a great tradition if you can afford it for a Jewish family, is we would not be here so that we didn’t have to deal with it.  And so, we were usually in Mexico and hitting the piñata- playing those kinds of games. And so, I have really great memories of Christmas, but most of them were not Christmassy; and my father would never allow her Christmas tree. But after my parents passed away,   Christen and I made a beautiful Christmas tree- he’s not religious- but we made a beautiful Christmas tree.

But once my parents passed away, one of the things that happened in our family, which comes back to depression, is that it really broke apart; that was the end. So, we didn’t see anybody. And that became- that’s really hard. Every Christmas for us, that part is really hard. And he’s got a daughter in Alaska; he’s got a niece in Vegas; my brother’s in LA, but moving to Laughlin in Nevada; and my niece, right now, is in Texas. We’re just all over the place, so it just doesn’t happen anymore. And so that’s been hard.

But one of the things that I wanted to say from when we did use to get together is, I think,  one of the things that also happens in the holidays is people use that like to try to get other family members to love them if they don’t feel they’re good enough or they don’t feel like their parents understand them or whatever it is, I think those are other expectations also that go into the holidays-is trying to get their approval. You wanted to say something Gary?

[23:39] Gary: Oh yeah. Cause I, I know I did that probably my whole life was love me, love me, love me because I grew up, cause my parents were emotionally not available. So, every time that I would go to those events, I would act the way that people wanted me to be able to act to. And I don’t think that I’ve changed. I don’t think I’m a bad person, but I think that, once they see who I really am and I stopped acting there, there’s a distance, there’s a distance. And they don’t want to be able to, to cross the bridge to be able to come closer to where I am. So, that’s why I was looking at it as that goes back to that acceptance and understanding of who they are and what they could be able to do.

You know better so you have to be able to do better. And it’s kind of like chess. You have to be able to understand what the opponent’s going to be doing. So, it doesn’t let you push a button; you can’t let them push your buttons. And I think that’s a lot of times what happens is, you start taking a lot of this stuff personally.

Ellen: Yes.

Gary:  And you react to stuff. And it’s just like you go, “Oh you did that to me, you did that to me.” And it’s like “Okay, well.” They probably had no thought of you, but we just have a tendency to be able to put ourselves in the middle of their stuff and thinking it was something bad. I know that, I think I went to a funeral once where there were just situations, and I stopped expecting things cause my father was there; and I stopped expecting that he wasn’t going to be able to do or say the things that I was longing to be able to hear. It was still hurtful to drive home from Tennessee, was hard, but it didn’t lock me up for six months.

[25:26] Ellen: Well I want to share something that reminds me of, that may give some people some hope. I can remember going to holiday things or even, any family gathering,  and just feeling really depressed because I always felt like they didn’t understand me. They didn’t get me, I was sort of the black sheep of the family.  I’ve always been liberal and l my grandparents were super conservative. My parents started out more conservative and over the years, became more and more liberal.

But what I found was the more that I became myself, the more that I decided “Screw this, I’m going to be who I am,”-and also my family did go to therapy together- but it came to the point where it actually all turned around and it was really great, and I became very close to my parents, and my husband- they loved him and adored him. But it was really by me not letting them, and who they were, decided who I was or who I was going to be because I was with them. So, I really want to encourage people to just be yourself. And if your family is not going to accept who you are and find people who are,

[26:37] Gary: Ellen, did you find yourself, because I knew that I did that too, is when you did that, because you went back to a point, it’s like, you’re searching for love,  and you find yourself going back to, “Okay I felt loved when I was 14 years old.” So then, you go back and sort of play that 14-year-old to the family. Cause that’s the only way that they saw you when you were lovable.

[27:03] Ellen: Yup. Only mine was about preteen. Yeah. As soon as I started asserting myself, my mom used to kid because my dad would get really upset with me for doing something, and my mom would laugh, and she’d say- my dad’s name was Sam- She’d say, “Sam, you get upset with Ellen when she’s acting just like you,”

And he would sometimes be on the phone during dinner or you’re doing business or something like that. And so, I learned entrepreneurship kind of young from watching him. And then, I would start to do some of that and he’d get all, all huffy about it, you know? And so, we would just laugh, but it was okay for a man, but he didn’t like, women doing it… women should be nice and sweet and all that.

[27:44] Gary: Well, there’s a lot of change coming and a lot of repairing too. A lot of relationships are going to be coming over the next thirty years.

[27:53]  Ellen: Yeah. In what way?

[27:55] Gary: Just touching on that political stuff, With some of the divide that that’s going on there, it may not be able to be avoidable. But I know that there’s a lot of people who have lost friendships. In fact, I had to block, my brother; my brother was sending me all sorts of conspiracy-theory emails and stuff with the trial that is going on. And I just told him, I said, please don’t send me this stuff. You know, we don’t agree and we’re not going to agree. I’m not going to read this stuff and if you don’t stop, I have to block you. And he just kept sending stuff.

Ellen: (Laugh) Oh God

[28:37] Gary: Okay. I warned you, and now you’re blocked.

[28:41] Ellen: I want to talk about that. Do other people have fears about politics at the dinner table at Thanksgiving or Christmas? Anybody?

[28:49] Wayne:  No, I think I’m lucky in our family is so focused on the food as you were saying, they’re like “Whatever.” The rest of things, who cares?

[28:59] Ellen: (Laugh) That’s great.

[29:00]  Jillian: Um…I do think the more we can accept ourselves, I thought that was such a good point. The more we can accept ourselves and accept everyone else and just suspend our expectations that anything be different,  then I think the more joy we’re going to have in any situation.

Something…there may be other people waiting to speak to so I can come back to this later.

Ellen: No, it’s okay.

[29:27] Jillian: I was just going to say, I notice a lot in my social media connections in some people that I know personally are experiencing some of what we’re experiencing this year, which is we had two deaths in our family this year, and we’re coming up on the anniversary. Our granddaughter died… murdered, abducted and murdered over new year’s weekend. So, I think New Years is going to be kind of shot as a holiday for our family. We’ll be dragging ourselves through that. Yeah.

I’m seeing with other friends too, a lot of grief coming up. And so, my way of coping with grief, aside from letting myself feel it and not trying to avoid it, but it’s also to really focus on joy, to focus on every bit of happiness that is available to us during this period. And I think that’s, that’s a very powerful technique to use all year round, but especially in the holidays-to just have as much fun and as much joy and as much pleasure in the company of people we love as we possibly can because in our lives there’s always more than one thing going on. It doesn’t mean we’re ignoring stuff we’re worried about or sad about or grieving, but it just means looking at the totality of life because often, we all have periods where life really is difficult, really challenging, but it’s also worth it.

Life is good no matter what’s happening. Well, that seems like a great place to end unless somebody else wants to add anything else. Just one other thing,

[31:10] Gary: Well, there’s just one other thing, Ellen. I’ve been around a lot of other conversations about depression and things and sort of a big reveal is just I know that, been to doctors for quite a while and talking to them didn’t help. But finally, a doctor prescribed a couple like brain vitamins, he called it, but they’re pharmaceutical., But it does help, and it keeps a balance. And I have one that I take every day and another one that I can take as needed, so if things pile up, I can be able to go through that.

So, I guess, I just want to start a break, a little bit of the stigma. If there’s something that’s going on and you need help, go and ask, talk to a doctor, don’t be afraid to be able to try something until you can find the right combination that works for you, that will keep you on a level, feel that you don’t fall down into a hole that you can’t get on. Cause I’ve been in holes for six months or years and longer, and it’s no fun. I got to stay up, and we have to be able to be function. We can be able to share our gifts and our stories to be able to help other people.

[32:25] Ellen: Yeah. I want to say that’s a really nice thing to add to this. I appreciate that because it’s true. Sometimes, we think we have to do it on our own or that somehow, we’re weak if we take medication and that simply is not true.  I also want to say, I’ve been going to an integrative healer; there were a couple of things that he recommended that I thought were really good. So, I like to share those, but before I do, is there anything else anybody else wants to share or else I’m going to…

[32:52] Wayne: One of the big tools that I hear in all of your stories happening that I’ve come to rely on is managing the stories that we’re telling ourselves. What’s going on in life is not always centered around me, even though it really feels like that should be the way the world works. Right? We’re the center of the universe.

Ellen: Right, right.

[33:09]  Jillian: I have another comment on the political.

Ellen:  Okay.

[33:15] Jillian:  Something that’s helped me a little bit with that is to realize that both sides of this great divide are operating from a desire to have our country prosper, all in our own way trying to hold on we’re trying to hold onto our vision of what we want the country to be. So, it helps me sometimes when I’m listening to people to really understand, even if they’re saying things that seem so bad- even sometimes morally bankrupt.  But I realize that those people are operating out of their fears and hopes just as I am. And that helps me a little bit.

[33:50] Ellen: Yeah. I think that’s really important. That was one of the things that I was going to say, which is that it’s so interesting because like one of my partners is really conservative. And when the whole thing started on social media where people were getting really nasty and everything, I unfriended a lot of people who were just nasty. I just would not put up with, bad language and name-calling and all that sort of thing. But the really cool thing about having this relationship is that we see it totally differently, totally differently. But when you understand where that person is coming from,

Like for instance, and I don’t want to get too much into politics, but for instance, like on healthcare… like he saw Obamacare as being, ridiculously expensive and not helping. Well, they saw it that way because he makes a lot of money and so he had to pay more. Right. And after the recession for me, I couldn’t even afford it. And then all of a sudden, I was able to get healthcare and unless I had preexisting so suddenly I could get it. And so, to me, it’s like it was a miracle and it was wonderful.

So sometimes, you have to step back and go, where is this person coming from? Trying to see it from their point of view. And I think that for me anyway, I get less angry and frustrated with people when I can understand why they think what they’re thinking. I don’t know if that makes any sense. But that was like all of a sudden that moment where it’s like, “Oh yeah, of course I can see why he feels that way or why he thinks that.” Because my first reaction is to say you’re crazy. I mean, I would never say that because I don’t call people nice but, but you’re crazy because it’s such a great thing. So again,    sometimes we have different perspectives because of our different experiences, and our different classes or different religions or whatever.

[35:41] Betsy: Ellen, can I just pop in with one comment for one second here? think what the value of the book is that each person brought their own perspective when might be talking about medication, one might be talking about nutrition, one might be talking about exercise when might be talking about being ready to blow his head off. Each story is so different, and I just want to tell my coauthors how much I appreciate your sharing your stories and taking the time to put this together, and to Ellen for editing it, and marketing,  and making it available. It does make a difference in people’s lives,  and so many people I talk to want to read it and want, want to be educated. And you brought up a conversation that’s not often discussed. I want to thank each and every one of you for that.

 [36:27] Ellen: Aw, thanks, Betsy. Yeah, The way that the book came about was that I was depressed, and I had been in business for, many years. But I found myself feeling like, “What’s the point of this? It’s not working.” What I thought I wanted, then I don’t want anymore. “Now what do I want?” And “Did I build all these things for nothing?” And I was depressed, and I felt totally alone because entrepreneurs do not normally talk… I think they’re doing it more no… b ut when I was thinking of writing the book, nobody was talking about the down days. Everybody was trying to put their best foot forward on social media and always looked like they were perfect. And that just made me more depressed. So that was really the impetus for putting the book together.

But I want to give a few more things that my doctor shared with me, but I do want to say that the book is at http://ellenlikes.com/crush-it . First of all, they’re Bach Flowers. I don’t know if you guys are familiar with Bach flowers, but there are Bach flowers for different things, for hopelessness, for depression, those kinds of things. And that’s something that might help you. And another thing that he recommended to do is he had me do an exercise where he said: pick an experience that you had where you were just completely joyous.

And what he told me to was throughout the day to go to that place and to feel that, because what you think affects how you feel, and it affects your health. And when I find myself getting really down or when I’m doing something, I mean, there’s so many of us go through work and it’s a stressful day, but he said, six, eight times a day to do this, and whatever that is for you. If you can get your mind to start doing it, it really does help because it calms down your nervous system, so I just wanted to share those little tidbits that cost me a ton of money to get.

[38:37]  Jillian: I’m doing that now thinking,  “What would that be?” “Where would that be?”

Ellen: Right. Well also around the holidays, it’s easy to get into the grief of missing my parents, missing my family, missing my grandparents and everything. I had a huge family, and now they’re all gone. So, yeah, it’s easy to go into that loss and grief and all that.

[38:56] So it’s nice to go into those times and remember them as remember the good times and remember the good feelings that you had about it. Like I said, especially during the holidays.

Well, I want to thank everybody for joining me. I really appreciate it. And the reason I wrote the book again was getting other people’s perspectives. I’m no expert on depression other than my own. (Laugh)

So, I appreciate every one of you and I agree that the book, everybody has a different story to tell, a different way that they dealt with it, a different story as to how they got there. And I’m sure that whoever is listening to this, you’ll find at least one that will speak to you. So, I hope you will get the book http://ellenlikes.com/crush-it. That’s it. Thank you, guys. Bye-bye.

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